Two Interviews
âIn these interviews dating from 1998, Gilles ChĂątelet amplifies the major themes of To Live and Think Like Pigs, discusses his method of dramatisation and the crucial importance of style; and touches on subjects from dialectics to dope smoking, from Yoplait to slavery, along the way introducing some of the bookâs key concepts: cybercattle, the average man, the tapeworm-citizen, and of course the pitiful couple Cyber-Gideon and Turbo-BĂ©cassine.â
âAn all-guns-blazing philosophical assault on the ideology of âmarket democracyâ which opens with a mordant analysis of social faux pas in a trendy Paris nightclub, proceeds through brisk demolitions of sociology, economics, and finance punctuated by frequently hilarious broadsides against chaos theory, âpetronomadismâ, and media panics (among others); and ends up lampooning the fatuities of game theory by applying it to a coy urbaniteâs attempts to get her boyfriend to fix a hairdryerâŠ. To Live and Think Like Pigs was, to say the least, a surprise bestseller. â
âAll the more so given that this controlled explosion was detonated by a fairly obscure mathematician and philosopher whose only previous publication had been a book on the conceptual underpinnings of mathematics and physicsâ
âan unlikely candidate for a succĂšs de scandale, even if we consider that ChĂąteletâs singular intelligence was recognised by now-celebrated contemporaries such as Badiou and Deleuze, and that apart from his academic activities, he was involved in the militant gay activist movement and was apparently renowned for his wild partiesâ
âPacked with what Alain Badiou, in his preface to the English edition, calls ChĂąteletâs âfulminating abstractionâ, the energetic interventions translated below confirm the startling prescience of To Live and Think Like Pigs. â
âWhen first published in 1998, ChĂąteletâs dystopian tragicomedy was a fierce revolt against the âwinter yearsâ and a mordant theory-science-fiction of the future portended by the reign of Reagan-Thatcher-Mitterand. â
âToday its diagnoses seem wholly contemporary: the âtriple allianceâ between politics, economics, and cybernetics; the contrast between the self-satisfied ânomadismâ of a global overclass and the cultivated herds of âneurolivestockâ whose brains labour dumbly in cybernetic pastures; the arrogance of the âknights of financeâ; and the limitless complacency and petty envy of middle-class dupes haplessly in thrall to household goods and openly hostile to the pursuit of a freedom that might demand patience or labour. â
âThe two texts below, discovered in a Paris archive, were translated from a series of pages that ChĂątelet had reordered and collaged, using his preferred âcut-upâ-style working method, out of typewritten, printed, photocopied, and handwritten fragments. The provenance of the first is uncertain; the second is an interview conducted by Christine GoĂ©mĂ©, a version of which was published in the magazine ArtPress (no. 236, June 1998). [RM]â
â1. Mental Ecologyâ
âLess vogues, more waves! â FĂ©lix Guattariâ
âWhat is To Live and Think Like Pigs about?â
âItâs a book about the fabrication of individuals who operate a soft censorship of themselvesâ
âon the construction of what I call yoghurt-makers, of which Singapore is the typical example. In them, humanity is reduced to a bubble of rights, not going beyond strict biological functions of the yum-yum-fart typeâŠas well as the vroom-vroom and beep-beep of cybernetics and the suburbs (the function of communication)â
âThis yoghurt-maker is not content to fabricate livestock; it creates neurolivestock. So people with entirely adequate IQs donât become free individuals, in the sense of their having the capacity to amplify individuation; instead they constitute what I call cyber-livestock, of which the Turbo-BĂ©cassines and Cyber-Gideons are the archetypes.â
âFurthermore, in market democracies, politics becomes a kind of photocopy of the economyâthe photocopier itself being the whole Minotaur of financial markets, which supposedly incarnate a certain kind of socio-economic legitimacy, but which in fact formulate the necessities of a rentier class that is more and more impatient, more and more greedy andâŠolder and older. â
âAll fresh meat, all fresh brains, must become quantifiable and marketable.â
âIt canât be the preserve of specialists to think and to live liberty (not in the liberal sense, letâs be clear!) I donât see why the mathematician, or anyone else, should partition themselves off. De Gaulle said: itâs time for the teachers to teach, the students to study, the I-donât-know-what to do whateverâŠâ Hegel called this the society of the Understanding, where everyone has their well-determined place.â
âIn any case, in constructing my book I tried not to make it the nth refutation of liberal theory. It had to function by using a series of disciplined metaphors which work like an Archimedesâ lever with a very rapid destructive effect, in the tradition of the burlesque attacks of Rabelais and Swift.â
âI wanted to write a book that made the reader irritated, itchy, pissed off.â
âI try to identify all the tics of what I call the average man, a statistical and cybernetic degradation of the Anglo-Saxonsâ âordinary manâ.â
âItâs a total perversion of the notion of democracy. To struggle against that is to participate in FĂ©lix Guattariâs âmental ecologyâ.â
âDemocracy? But you speak of the necessity of a âcultural aristocracyâ!â
âAs I specify, an aristocracy that would not be coopted by birthright or by money. Letâs not forget that Nietzsche wanted anyone whatsoever to have the right to receive an excellent education. â
âEvery âlittle guyâ should have a chance to access the highest degrees of thought, of knowledge, and of power. â
âAnd above all, donât give me these stupid stories about IQ. Naturally, the agility of the body is part and parcel of intelligence: the instructive and inspired geometry of the dancer or the mountaineer!â
âParadoxically, the system at one and the same time aims to uniformize, and to accelerate inequalities tremendously.â
âThe market makes a claim to rationality, and a nice festive equilibrium.â
âThis is what I call festive mercantilism, the society of the cellphone, where you can call yourself a nomad even while you remain trussed up in your ego, in your own house, and keeping among your own.â
âYou speak of an imperative of fluidity which seeks to govern society. How can we put a spanner in the works to counter it?â
âIf only I knewâŠ. For now, there is a whiff of revolt against the âspirit of Davosâ. But as for the spanner, thatâs your work, thatâs for the next generation.â
âThe intellectualâs role is to show how, underneath a veneer of seriousness, all of these people are essentially grotesque. Thatâs a work of militancy, itâs a matter of identifying the tics, the postures and the poses of the spirit of contemporary seriousness and of all those other Diafoiruses of socio-economic âpragmatismâ. â
âThe model of this would be Barthesâs Mythologiesâ
âTo attain the patience-work that you oppose to indentured work and performance-work?â
âPatience-work, in fact, is directly opposed to an increasingly cyber-volatile money, money that dreams only of making more money. â
âTo be impatient is to scorn others as mere puddles of inertia or, strictly speaking, as raw material to be manipulated or formed.â
âThis is perhaps the secret of the impatience of the service society, which scorns matter and the hand (and in particular understands nothing of the dignity of manual work!)â
âRemember that a society like this privileges the optimal manufacture of services, that is to say of goods consumed at the very moment of their production; and thus induces totally impatient psychologies.â
âMaking a burlesque of them is a part of the interrogation bearing upon patience-work, work that would articulate the production of something and the fact that you take it to heart, that it plays a part in the intensification of your liberty! â
âit can only be done by twisting language upon itself, by throwing off all the habits and postures that increasingly oppress and petrify the ordinary man!â
âThe work of the âleft intellectualâ is more tiring than you might suppose. One has to spend all oneâs time shouting âThis or that emperor has no clothes.ââ
âThis is why we must assure ourselves of a minimum of social comfortânot to satisfy egocentrism, but so thereâs some kind of influx of air. â
âthe response canât just be a new humanitarianism. We can no longer say: âin any case, even so we have to learn to live togetherâ. Thatâs all over.â
âThe solution is not AbbĂ© Pierre.â
âWell, there are worse things than AbbĂ© Pierre! Even so, we should follow his example! The problem is that he said stupid things afterwards. I donât want to play the doddering old man, but itâs not always easy not to say stupid things. Once you begin to have any power, any notoriety, or whatever, immediately there is something that impels you to say stupid things.â
âSo perhaps weâll push you to say something stupid: When you talk about cannabis, you mention a narco-consensus; do you actively resist against this?â
âActive resistance, what does that mean? Have I smoked in my life? Itâs true that it is not right to be hunted down and imprisoned for doing so. But just as thereâs nothing to be ashamed of in it, nor is it anything to be particularly proud of.â
âIâve never thought that doing this or that particular thing necessarily implies that one has a coherent subversive point of view; there is absolutely no sufficient condition for becoming a free man.â
âThere are always necessary conditions, but at any given moment, a free man can become an old foolâor a young fool.â
âThe modern, tertiary system boasts an absolutely incredible power of âentrapmentâ. So many people will tell you: âin any case, youâre part of the systemââŠ. But oneâs always part of the system. â
âsoft humanism isnât directly manipulated by the powers of finance, but it is, as they said in the âgood old daysâ of Marxism, âobjectively complicitâ with a certain mercantile abjectionâ
âThere are a certain number of Marxist trivialities that need to be stated and restated. They always stand, and give us the will to struggle against a certain way in which the splendour of human individuation is diminishedâ
âWhatâs at stake now is to know whether we want a humanity of cretins or not. Sometimes itâs said that teaching costs too much! Well, how much does a humanity of cretins cost?â
âIt seems that you had some difficulties in publishing your bookâŠ. However, when you are charged with setting up a sort of connivance, itâs because there is communicationâŠ.â
âItâs communication in an active and offensive sense. Whereas communication that would be nothing but the decanting of an already-given information from jug 1 to jug 2, thatâs just shit! Thatâs the Cyber-Gideons. But if itâs information in the sense of Spinoza, Hegel, Nietzsche, Marx and Schelling, then itâs an acceleration of freedom. Connivance is on that level, and not between we two individuals; it surpasses differences in knowledge and experience, it lies in the fact that you sense that something is being unleashed here. Because I think that, at any given moment, every free being feels the unleashing of liberty!â
âwe need to build devices for the implosion-explosion of cyber-stupidity.â
âInterview by AquilĂšs, Dr. No and Gros.
Books to read (the living authors!)
J.-T. Desanti, La Philosophie silencieuse. Badiou, Ethics. Vatin, La FluiditĂ© industrielle. RanciĂšre, Disagreement. DesrosiĂšres, La Politique des grands nombres. Sassen, The Global City. J.-C. Milner, Le salarie de lâidĂ©al.â
â2. Interview with Christine GoĂ©mĂ©â
âA mathematician and philosopher, Gilles ChĂątelet has just published a book on the question of market democracies and the great World Marketâthat tidal wave that risks swallowing up states, knowledges, bodies, and thoughts. It is well-informed (he has read many current theorists on the question, in particular the âanglo-saxonsâ) and vicious (itâs a declaration of war). Taking leave of all goodwill, he proposes in a vigorous style to mobilise thought. The book is called To Live and Think like Pigs.â
âPostmodern capitalism is an incredible, complex, and extremely deadly machine, ready to swallow up everything. No one seems to really be armed against the world Market, this new and sophisticated version of the death driveâ
â[The first chapter of To Live and Think like Pigs] âThe Palaceâs Night of Red and Goldâ seeks to wager at once upon the burlesque, the romanesque and the conceptual. Itâs a matter of grasping a very particular but very revealing aspect of the spirit of the times in âthe late 70sââthat of post-leftism and of the victorious offensive of the Liberal Counter-Reformation and the great success of âsetting the record straightâ.â
âIn France we had the burlesque breakfasts of Giscard with the garbagemen, the intellectuals, the prisoners, imagining the era of the shrinking state and of market-democracy in a tracksuit.â
âThanks to Wilde, to Proust, to James, we know that there is a political way of grasping the mundane and the frivolous.â
âThere was indeed a magic to these evenings at the Palace and the cocktail of Money, the Street, Fashion, the Media, the University, which would soon collapse into the Global City of the equation City=Market=Money=âŠ.â
âThe observation of everyday practices can detect ultra-sensitive and very revealing aspects of the social transformations that are underwayâ
ââ Living and thinking like a pig above all concerns a styleâthat of the âtapeworm-citizenââand a question of vocabulary. We speak from the inside of the market as if it went without saying. You denounce the perversion of wordsââdemocracyâ or âchoice of societyââand the mediocrity of the socio-economic. You date this to the advent of MitterandismâŠ. You denounce the idolatry of opinion, of statistics, of the majority legitimated by numbers, the hatred of excellenceâŠ.â
âItâs a question of seeking confrontation and of crying Down with grey! Down with the Neutral! Long live Anger! Long Live the Red!â
âWe should never forget that grey neutralises intensities by mixing together all the colours that are already given. Style is not a polite way of thinking: no style, no thinking!â
âStyle is a discipline of breaking language out of itself, a martial art of metaphor. â
âThe haranguing tone of the pamphlet is a working on language, and style is an entirely integral part of thought qua thought experiment.â
âThe effectiveness of the philosophical concept is fuelled by a work of torsion of material language on itself. Itâs a matter of capturing and organising the forces that could break through and tear apart âstraight-talkingâ and âpromoting quality cultureâ.â
âNote also that, in order to break through, one must understand the Hegelian-Marxist helix not as a routine movement within History, but as a corkscrew that leverages a torsion of natural language.â
âTo get rid of all the priggish scientistic pedantry and humanist pap that proliferates like weeds, all these socio-communicative set-ups of orthopaedics and synthesised greyness, by inventing a functional form of metaphor that produces effects of truculence, a little like the great Elizabethan playwrightsâthis, perhaps, is the famous âsuperior empiricismâ of which Hegel, Foucault-Deleuze, etc. dreamtâa dramatization of the concept.â
âWe must also rediscover the political tradition of burlesque paganism (Renard the Fox, animal fablesâŠ).â
âTerminology, syntax, and various technical media do indeed exert a political effect on natural language. There is a language of economic laws that takes itself for good sense, and which is supposed to entirely legitimate everything, by functioning as a type of mercantile self-censorship of language practiced outrageously by those who would be the elite of the tertiary society (the so-called âserviceâ society) and who I catalogue with my Turbo-BĂ©cassines, Cyber-Gideons, and Neo-Topazesâa curious mixture of pedantry and naivetyâ
ââMercantile empiricismâ must be understood as a highly degraded form of the great tradition of English empiricism, and an offshoot of the English political arithmetic of the eighteenth century, whose avowed objective was the domestication of contingency (âtaming chanceâ) for the ends of political dominationâ
âMercantile empiricism claims to cherish, and loves to speak of, the âordinary manâ, when in fact it idolises a ventriloquial entity, the average man of the polls.â
âThe consequence of this is a total perversion of the word âdemocracyâ: it is no longer understood as residing in the excellence of the multitude, but is taken as a pure and simple replica of the Market, as majority-market and as market democracy of entrepreneur-politicians and panelist-consumers.â
âIn France, it was Giscard who was the first (with his book DĂ©mocratie Française) to begin to establish democracy as a photocopy of the market. Following Jean-Claude Milner (see his book La salarie de lâidĂ©al), we can speak of the auto-republican terms of government (Giscard and Mitterand), which were marked by the increasingly triumphant ascendancy of the mercantile-social in French politics: âafter all, ultimately France is only worth its value to the global marketââan ascendancy that sought to totally eliminate the role of the symbolic.â
âDemocracy thus becomes a kind of thermocracy, subject to the laws of what aspires to be a veritable Social Physics, managing hundreds of millions of little egos closed up in their spheres of formal liberties, like the pathetic mannikins in a Bosch painting held prisoner in their glass bubble.â
âdemocracy becomes a synonym for mediocrityâ
âany disinterested activity that aspires to excellence is suspect and is charged with elitismâ
âIt has never really been a question of ârespect for the Other,â of Democracy, of Rights, etc.; never has cyber-bourgeoisie pedantry been so giddy with categories and false concepts dressed-up with capital lettersâŠ. And never, meanwhile, has real powerâthe power to create the field of the possibleâbeen so concentrated in the hands of such a tiny minorityâ
âIn principleâfor a philosopher of any consequenceâthere is nothing but âconcrete life,â and above all there is no difference between the social âmicroscopeâ and the social âtelescopeâ (for a cosmologist, the infinitely small is welded to the infinitely large).â
âThere are two mystificationsâvery intimidating mystifications: that of âcalculationsâ and that of the âeveryday shopping cartââbetween which the discourse of economics often oscillates.â
âBut we have to walk on both feet to attain a superior empiricism; it brings in both the macro (the Global Market) and the micro (the night at the Palace, the Turbo-BĂ©cassines, etcâŠ).â
âThe Great Market thinks far better and far faster than theories. It spontaneously articulates the micro and the macro; this is where its whole power lies, and its destructive cynicism.â
âThis is why Iâve insisted so strongly on these prototypes, these clownish clones the Turbo-BĂ©cassines and Cyber-Gideons, who swarm in their millions over contemporary tertiary societies. Cyber-Gideon and Turbo-BĂ©cassineââold-adolescent Biba-panelistââpathetically crave to be singular, when they are nothing but a miserable particularity (Turbo-BĂ©cassine number n); and cosmopolitan, when they are nothing but interchangeable panelist-consumer figuresâ
âThey flatter themselves that they are âcultural and communicativeâ without understanding that the cultural and the communicative are not what form or accelerate singularisation, but are uniformising.â
âBut, as always, this diminutive fringe of humanity, very vocal and mediocrely cultural (5 percent of the population of USA-Europe-Japanâthat is, 0.5 percent of the global population) gazes upon itself as if it were the decentred navel of humanity, constituting a voracious and very mediocrely cultured âcyber-bourgeoisâ class (see Emmanuel Toddâs book LâIllusion economique on the exhaustion of American culture).â
ââ The âintellectual crookâ claims to possess all the characteristics of fluidity, of nomadism: This is his policeman side, the other thesis of the dominant ideology being the End of History. You denounce the Triple Alliance between politics, economics, and cybernetics, and you claim that âcybernetics fabricates behaviours impervious to political intelligence.â You like a striking sloganâfor example: âfor global fluidity, global distress.â Before such a fluidity which risks absorbing everything, you respond with the âheroism of the anyone.ââ
âIntellectual crooks love to crow over Chaos, Flux, Radical Evil, etc., which have become the great contemporary mystifications.â
âThe âchaotisersâ love to adorn themselves with a libertarian emblemâŠforgetting that as we go on about chaos, power becomes more and more concentrated in a few invisible handsâŠ.â
âThe intellectual crook is fond of indecision and perplexity when faced with the complexity of the worldâŠwhich allows him to excuse all indecisions and lazinessâunless he compensates for them by stupefying himself with Scourges and Just Causes, and above all by giving himself over to the great frisson of Radical Evilâ
âAll of these impostures have but one aim: to delay time, to encumber space, and above all to avoid difficult decisions by stupefying oneself with secondhand metaphorsâthe nadir of ridiculousness being attained with âthe nomad spiritsâ who pathetically ape the aces who always bounce back and the neo-bigots of the technico-commercialâ
âRemember that, in the 20s, it was Franco-Belgian imperialism that invented the concept of nomad-work, which consisted in âde-sedentarizingâ certain peasants for seasonal work. After all, isnât slavery a nomadism? (See also nomad-companies, cyber-mercenaries, etcâŠ.)â
âYou also mentioned the End of History? The Turbo-BĂ©cassines and the Cyber-Gideons imagine it as a festive auto-regulationâperhaps spiced up by eruptions of Radical EvilâŠwith its self-marketed riots in the USA, and its reciprocal massacres of peoplesâŠ. The End of History? Itâs when History gives way to animal ethology and to social auto-regulation managed by a festive, auto-fluidifying auto-nomadising, auto-virtualising police.â
âRemember Jacques RanciĂšreâs very pertinent distinction between policing and the political: Policing distribute places and functions, and is to be opposed to the political, which âundoes the perceptible divisions of the policeâ (âPolitical activity [âŠ] makes understood as discourse what was once only heard as noiseâ). â
âContrary to appearances, this festive social self-regulation falls squarely under policingâauto-policingâand not politics.â
âThe triple alliance between politics, economics and cybernetics fuses the perfection of the auto-policing approach and the absolute zero of politicsâ
âItâs not a matter of controlling neurons medically, but of developing a mass individualism by forming social protozoan psychologiesâa gigantic shoal of fish with a highly-evolved optimising technics at their disposalâvia the Market, Opinion, Communication: a social auto-resonance where every individual claims to singularise himself by aping the self-censorship of the other. The protozoan egos become ever stronger and more and more uniform, as if the functional and the instrumental had definitively taken over.â
âFor the Triple AllianceâŠtriple crisis! A crisis that is exacerbated by technologies of the so-called virtual, by means of which every ego is rigged up to reassure itself confidently that it is unique, secreting an aquarium, a spherical vitrine that surrounds it, a closed aquarium of possibilities that stifles all political intelligence: the virtual reinforces the stubbornness of particularity. â
âWe must get out of this infernal spiral of the Particular-Universal (Guattari perhaps is thinking of this with his âmolecular revolutionâ), and we must beware of the optimism of a politique du pire that believes fluidity will lead us to the Grand Soir in a comfy armchair. â
âHeroism of the anyone? The hero can no longer be the âprofessional Leninist revolutionaryâ. â
âThe heroism of the anyoneâwhich supposes a noninstrumental relation to languageâis what we must wager on to vanquish the neurocracy that is being sketched out by the coddled Global Middle Class, by those who we might well call neuro-politologists, who dream of merging âthe physical sciences with the human sciencesâ by identifying the political with the neuronal, and who just canât understand the coalition of the patient and the unique that constitutes the splendour of human individuation.â
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